Summary

Jo Saxton is an author, speaker, podcast host, and leadership coach. Today, Jo joins me to talk about discipleship, the church, and women in ministry.

Links:
Jo Saxton's Website
The Dream of You Book by Jo Saxton
Jo Saxton’s Book List
Lead Stories Podcast
Harvard Business Review

Transcript

Jo Saxton: I think there's something phenomenal about the fact that 2000 years across the denominations there haven't, the church has been, has buckled under pressure. It's ha, it's been corrupted at various times, but still there are still people who will get up and proclaim the name of Jesus tomorrow.

James: From CityLife Church, I'm James Wright. This is Contrast Theory. Well today I've got Jo Saxton here with me. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Jo Saxton: Thank you for having me.

James: Now for those who don't know you, you are a lead. Let me just, I have a list. You are a leadership trainer, an international speaker, author of three books. Well obviously international speaker, we're here. Author of three books, chair of the board at 3d movements, co-host a podcast called lead stories, founder of the Erza collective. I'm not, or I'm not sure. How do you have any time in your life?

Jo Saxton: Well, I don't do all of those things all at all, all the time. So, um, so yeah, I stepped down from the board maybe a year just about. Last summer, I don't know what day it is. I don't know the day and I don't know the season, so I can't even say when it happened, but it did happen, I promise. Yes. Um, well you know, like with most things, I think most people wear a lot of hats really. I just don't do them all at once and I don't do them all for a sustained period of time.

James: Yeah, right. Well that's fair enough. Well for those who don't know, you just arrived this morning.

Jo Saxton: Yes, yes I did. And the plane was delayed so we missed it. I don't know. We're meant to get here yesterday. We got here today and hopefully some of our bags will arrive later today.

James: I think you missed a day as well.

Jo Saxton: Yeah, we missed the day anyway, so we missed the day. We're delayed today and everything.

James: It's all over the place. It's all over the place. Yeah, it's hard to keep track.

Jo Saxton: What country am I in?

James: Austria. I think you read the plane ticket wrong.

Jo Saxton: That'd be so weird.

James: You're originally from the UK?

Jo Saxton: I am, yes.

James: When did you move to the States?

Jo Saxton: I moved about 15 years ago. Yeah. Initially to Phoenix. That was warm. Yes. We um, we moved to work. It was almost a bit like a church swap. Um, except I don't know that they send people anyway, there are a number of teams went to work with this church. They were looking at how they could transition the model of their church to incorporate discipleship more and being more intentional about mission. The very hard, it was very hard. I think there was so much, I think it took me five years to realize, Oh no, I knew I didn't know stuff about America, but I didn't quite know the depth. And then 10 years to think, Oh now I know what I don't know. I think it took quite a while now, 15 years and I'm just like, wow man.

James: Are you still figuring stuff out?

Jo Saxton: Cause I think, I don't know whether, you know like Australia is huge. Yeah. So I'm imagining that Perth as a culture and everything can be actually quite different to places. Would that be fair? I felt like the U S is like seven countries, seven countries and, and what you can do in one place is the very opposite of what you can do in another. And um, yeah, I mean it's just a journey of discovery.

James: Now you, you are well qualified to talk on many, many topics. And uh, over my research I've seen you talk at vast amount in varying, you know, churches and denominations. And one of the topics I've I've seen you passionately speak about is a discipleship.

Jo Saxton: Yes. Oh my gosh.

James: Why, why do you think discipleship is so important?

Jo Saxton: Well, um, in the context of faith, Jesus told us to, and um, and I think they're his marching orders. You know, that his last words are like your marching orders. And that's all he invited people into. He said he would make disciples. He invited people to be his disciples. And I think, I mean, we have this luxury in this chapter of history to think of all the different things we're called to do and all the different places that we could be and where we'd go because of technology and, and transport. And all that kind of stuff. But wherever we are, we're always called to make disciples and, and that, that it's a word for all of us. So to that end, I'm like, I really want to know how to do that. Right. You know, I may speak sometimes, I may not others I'm like, yeah, like the list of things, those things will change with every chapter in season of my life. But the discipleship one is one for every chapter. And I think it, I think we, when we understand what discipleship is, we, um, we live more fully as Christians.

James: Hmm. Well, one of my favorite parts in, uh, this book, 'The Dream of You.

Jo Saxton: Thank you for the shameless plug there. Thank you very much. I receive it.

James: Now obviously I could tell this book wasn't written directly to me. As, you know, it's constantly talking about women, but that's fine. There so many things that honestly everyone can learn from the book. One of my favorite parts is, is where you talk about how you can make disciples in whatever situation you're in. Uh, you can turn the tide in, in your family and your community in your workplace. Uh, how do, how do you see that transforming people in your everyday life?

Jo Saxton: Yeah, well, I'm mindful of like, I like do an audit if who's in my life from time to time just to sit, not because I'm getting rid of it. I guess I'm asking myself the question, what does it mean to be Jesus to these people? You know? Um, if, if I am the only representative that they know of faith, am I, am I a good one or am I doing damage? You know, um, and like those were the people in my life permanently. But also the people I pass by with like when I'm in Starbucks or Target, God bless the place, or wherever I am, I have an opportunity to be a walking, talking overflow of the kingdom of heaven. And so making disciples that the whole thing about discipleship means a student, an apprentice. And so I, I want to be sure in my language, in my relationships that I am, I'm trying to walk the way of Jesus and, and illustrating what that looks like.

Jo Saxton: We're trying to be living examples of what it means to follow Jesus. And that's my hope when Mike, I have a tweenager and a teenager, which means that they have friends who come over and kind of graze in our kitchen and just leaving, do you know, like termites and just sweep through. I looked and thought you're never leaving children are you? Ever. Any of them. Um, but I, I just thought, you know, I want it to be a safe place for these kids. And that doesn't mean like every time I sit down and say, tell me your issues, that will happen, but I want it. I want it to be a home where they can always think like, OK. um, when they think of Christians, they think, Oh, they don't think of bigotry or um, self-centeredness or many other things, which sadly are all realities. They think of welcome and they think of love and they think of grace and they think, you know what I mean, those sorts of things.

Jo Saxton: And, and we don't, that doesn't come from just what we say. Those things are caught as well as taught. And, and Jesus, like he embodied, he, he embodied good news with his words, with his actions, with everything. He, what does it say in The Message version of John 1:14, the word became flesh and moved into the neighborhood. And I, and I feel like as Christians we move into the neighborhoods we're already in, we're sent to the lines we already have. And then I'm going, then I'm asking what do we do with that?

James: Can you think of one thing or maybe a couple of things that the church is currently doing poorly about discipleship?

Jo Saxton: I think there are many things that we could say, and it's hard because different parts of the world have different journeys. But I would say for the West, one of the things I would encourage us to think of is the degree to that we've made discipleship purely about instruction and we've made it a didactic process.

Jo Saxton: And it's not that, that's not part of it because we see that with Jesus. But there are, there's a whole load of other things that aren't just the instruction on the course and the program and the class. And I think what we can, I think we can set ourselves up for heartbreak as leaders, as, as churches when we're like, you know, I taught them all this stuff, how come they're not living it? And it's like, well, because that's a slice of discipleship. It's not the whole of discipleship. So if you don't put all the ingredients in the cake, you don't get the cake that you planned. So it's not a chocolate cake if you didn't put any chocolate in it, you know, all the, it's still a cake still cake. And I.

James: Just a disappointing cake.

Jo Saxton: It's just, well ironically this is where the thing falls apart cause I don't like chocolate bar. I like to offer that as an illustration because most people do. But I guess I would say if we are only doing one aspect of one dimensional form of discipleship, then we will get a one dimensional form of disciple. We can't help but, and that's no, that's no shade to the people involved. It's not that we don't do it well, it's just, it's incomplete.

James: So what do you think the church has been doing well?

Jo Saxton: I mean, I do think we have to respect the fact that the church is still here. The church is still here, I think. And on one level we could say it's not that I don't think worship is wonderful, all of those things are wonderful, but I, I, I think there's something phenomenal about the fact that 2000 years cross the denominations there haven't, the church has been, has, has buckled under pressure, it's been corrupted at various times, but still there are still people who will get up and proclaim the name of Jesus tomorrow and all around the world. I think there are in parts of the world where it's popular, and parts of the world where it's unpopular. I think that is incredible. I think that that the church, even in its weakness is trying to point to Jesus. That's incredible. And um, and I think whenever the church and it may not be the most glamorous way and it may not be the most known way, but whenever the church is reaching out to the lost, the last, the least and the lonely, I think we've got it. I think we have to honour that. I think it's a wonderful thing because it's, it's, people are doing the best they can, you know, with what they know. I think that's good.

James: That's fair enough. Now my other favorite thing that you speak on a lot is women in leadership.

Jo Saxton: I thought you were gonna say target.

James: Oh, Target. Well, actually, you know, before we get to this, I would like to make a note to anyone who's listening. Target in Australia is significantly disappointing if you compare it to the American target.

Jo Saxton: Real talk.

James: When I went to the States for the first time I went to, I went to target in the States and it blew my mind, the fact that I could do grocery shopping and get clothes... Pretty much anything that the mind can imagine.

Jo Saxton: A village under one roof.

James: It is incredible. You can eat there, there's food, they have hot food. Yeah, you can get pizza. What? Anyway, I'm getting too distracted and it's really, it's so high up on my list. Every time I go back to the States and I'm visiting my family in Canada and I'm like, Oh, I might make a pit stop at the States so I can go to Target. Um, no, one of my favourite topics is that you speak about is women in ministry. And you are very passionate about seeing women rise up in the church. Why are you so passionate about that?

Jo Saxton: Um, I think some of it is a discipleship thing. It's, and I, I'm aware that there is a framework of theory. There's a range of theological convictions. And I'd say the same to everybody. Invest in your women because you are not going to see, I mean, we, we're all played too. We're all called to play our part in His great commission. If you don't invest in people, they're not able to do it. Um, obviously from the framework of, of where I'm at, when I see the Deborah's and the Lydia's and the Phoebe's and the Priscilla's and the Junia's and others in the Bible. And I'm like, yeah. And, and I, and we have women who are made in the image of God with gifts and talents. And, and I mean, I put, I don't, some would say it's a justice issue. I don't know. I just think it's a theological one.

Jo Saxton: I think we see it in the Bible. Let's do it. Even if it's just to the degree that we see women in the Bible do what they do, let's do that. It's just, you know, could Deborah do what she could Miriam do, um, today in our spaces? I mean, we'd get loads of them. And so I think some of it is, I see women with gifts and talents and call. Um, and I think we can have a number of responses. We can shut it down. Um, we could give lip service to it, but no actual investment. And I think that's a painful reality to say. Yeah. Not gonna do anything about it though. That doesn't help anybody. Um, but I think of what is not happening because we have lived off half an army. And what burden has that put on guys to do it all and be it all and what's not happening? What businesses aren't being launched, what creative ventures aren't happening, what churches aren't being planted, who is buckling under the pressure, stress and burnout because we are, um, we're not all involved. I mean, I, it just doesn't make sense.

James: Yeah. What do you think are the other key things that churches should be doing to encourage their women?

Jo Saxton: Um, I think there are lots of things. I think there are, there's a phrase by a woman called Marian Wright Edelman, and she said, you can't be what you can't see. And I think for women, if they don't hear their stories, if they don't hear themselves or see themselves, it's very hard to think of what's normal. And it's hard when you're normal has been, you see yourself all the time and you know, when you're, and you hear you, you hear characters, which sound like you or whatever. Now I get, I get loads out of every, it's the Bible. Of course I get loads out of everybody. I'm just aware that we don't preach on Deborah very much or, or Priscilla or Phoebe and all that kind of stuff, tell their stories. And um, and it's not that you'd be amazed at the relevance, not just for them.

Jo Saxton: I mean, not obviously they're for men as well, but I think that that's one thing what we celebrate publicly, whether we like it or not, is an accidental endorsement. So what do you want to celebrate? Um, are we giving people opportunities to grow, to fail? Um, I think the challenge, and this isn't easy for anybody, I think there are many voices telling all of us, men and women what to do, but there is a lot culturally which says to women that to have a voice is a problematic thing to be strong can be a problematic thing. And, and it even varies from ethnicity to ethnicity as well in terms of the cultural stereotypes. And as a church we have something to say to that. We are, we have the model of how Jesus related to women. Do we model that in the way we function and do we encourage, you know, like Jesus had Joanna, Susanna and Mary travelling with him and I and and as after they, they are transformed by him and then they become part of the team. Are we living into that? I think, I think we have massive opportunities but if we don't have, if women don't have access, if they don't have encouragement, access and opportunities to fail, then not much will happen. Oh, and fail and succeed as well.

James: It is interesting. It's sometimes a harsh reality when you think about churches, sometimes they're not representing the or giving women the trust and leadership values that they did even in the Bible. I mean, who is, who was entrusted with the information that Jesus had risen the first people who found out were women. I love the fact that you are speaking to that and I want you to speak to women right now.

Jo Saxton: Yes. Hello!

James: Hello women. Now, what, what do you want to say to them right now? What would you like them to do?

Jo Saxton: I would first of all say to you that, um, that God sees you and he knows you and that he made you with gifts and talents and abilities that you're made in his image and you're not an accident. You're not accidentally gifted, you're not accidentally strong, you're not accidentally able that they're wonderful things and as such, um, to invest in them, like to unwrap the gifts which you've kept, kept hidden for a long time. I would say surround yourself with people who see what you've got to offer. Um, and I would say go for it. Um, it's not going to be easy, but not many of the best things are. Um, I would say to surround yourself, whether it's digitally or through books or resources that can invest in those qualities and those and the gifts you have, whether your ministry is in the context of the church, whether your ministries in the workplace.

Jo Saxton: Cause again, I mean, we've made that separation not the Bible as such, you know, most of, most of the, our biblical heroes that jobs. They had jobs and that's where they were living it. Um, and I would just say you are here for such a time as this, and it's, you're not on, it's not accidental and you're not too strong and you're not too much. I would encourage you to look up the word, helper in the Hebrew. Um, because it, and I'm not saying this by some manipulation of the text or anything like that, and it's just, it's just the word itself. Um, to recognize it means so much more than what we've limited it to it as. And, and to those of you who say, you know what, I feel really called to my husband and my kids absolutely do it. Do you know this isn't a kind of, Hey, right you are, raise up from the chains of doing those things... No, that's weird. We don't need to be weird. No need to be weird. Um, I'm just encouraging us to take hold of what God has designed us for and live it fully in his name. And if that means God gives you a promotion whereby you are able to create an ethical workplace, do it rather than say, should I be there because I'm a woman? Yeah, you should. You're a representative of the kingdom of God. And if God has called you to preach, and if God has called you to write songs, he's called you to raise your kids or raise your kids kids as a grandma, whatever it is, just give it all. You know? We, I think often with women, what I found is that, um, skills are rarely the issue. It's confidence and the, the battle that women have to fight in their minds before they even say they're called because they, I mean, there are magazines which are digitally structured to make us feel inadequate so that we spend our money on stuff and that's there. There are kids haven't done going on diets at age eight. And so there is a lot pumped in our mindsets from, from a very early age of what we're meant to be, to be worthy and what we have to offer. And it's never about our minds. You know what I mean? It's not about, Oh, you've got a way with science. No, that's not their thing. Um, but God has a bigger word for you and, um, and a wonderful purpose for you. And he sees all those things in your mind, but have the courage to begin to step out.

James: God's word and vision is not superficial.

Jo Saxton: No, not at all. It's, it's, I mean, it's, it's intense, man.

James: So women, that's, uh, that's your call. That is definitely your call. Now, can you recommend any resources besides your three wonderful books. Are there any other resources that you'd recommend?

Jo Saxton: Um, I tend to, I tend to, where do I go? Podcasts, the great. Oh yeah. Thank you. Lead Stories. Um, me and a friend called Steph do that, but I would, I would probably, I mean for me in terms of leadership stuff, I actually look at a lot of business things as well. So like Harvard Business Review and stuff like that have been real helpful. Um, I would look at the Christian leaders they admire and see what resources are out there and just go, but go on the internet, see the podcasts and the blog posts and things like that. Um, the kind of women who are doing things that you, you're interested in doing, start there.

James: That's great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming in.

Jo Saxton: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

James: Enjoy the rest of your time here and, uh, buy the book. And uh, hopefully we'll speak soon.

Jo Saxton: Thank you.

James: For more information and resources, check out the show notes for today's episode.